Episodes

Paul Quenon, OCSO: Silence, Poetry and Monastic Wisdom (Part Two)

Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO, Trappist monk, poet, and photographer, is the author of books like In Praise of the Useless Life: A Monk’s Memoir and Unquiet Vigil: New and Selected Poems. He returned to Encountering Silence for a conversation recorded last April (to hear his previous conversations on this podcast, click here and here). In this episode he speaks about the spirituality of nature, how God sometimes feels absent, and the challenge of being a poet in a time of dejection.

This is part two of a two-part interview. To listen to part one, click here.

Nature for me is very congenial… the birds are my teachers, they always seem to be exhilarated, no matter how bad the world is, they’re singing that same tune, and it picks up the heart: there’s something larger than ourselves and our concerns. — Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO

Brother Paul entered monastic life in 1958, when he was only 17 years old — back before the reforms of the Second Vatical Council, when the life of a Trappist was even more austere than it is today. His novice master turned out to be Thomas Merton, who eventually became an inspiration to Brother Paul not only as a monk, but as a writer.

It might be a mistake to seek the fullness of God. God, to our perception, is more like nothing, nothingness and emptiness. You have to allow God to manifest the way God will. Sometimes it’s consoling, sometimes you feel a presence… on the other hand, sometimes you just have to prepare yourself to the reality that God does not speak sometimes. — Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

I think a lot of people are feeling very dejected, at a loss, and maybe what the Lord wants me to do is feel at a loss with them. — Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO

Episode 111: Silence, Poetry, and Monastic Wisdom: A Conversation with Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO (Part Two)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO
Date Recorded: April 30, 2020

Episodes

Paul Quenon, OCSO: Silence, Poetry and Monastic Wisdom (Part One)

Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO, Trappist monk, poet, and photographer, is the author of books like In Praise of the Useless Life: A Monk’s Memoir and Unquiet Vigil: New and Selected Poems. He returned to Encountering Silence for a conversation recorded last April (to hear his previous conversations on this podcast, click here and here). This time, he offers a fascinating conversation drawing lines of connection between the monk’s experience of cloistered solitude and the challenges that the public at large has faced during the COVID-19 pandemic.

I think there’s something within everybody that really wants to have quiet time… There’s something about the heart that thirsts for that kind of quiet and silence. — Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO

Brother Paul entered monastic life in 1958, when he was only 17 years old — back before the reforms of the Second Vatical Council, when the life of a Trappist was even more austere than it is today. His novice master turned out to be Thomas Merton, who eventually became an inspiration to Brother Paul not only as a monk, but as a writer.

Here’s a video of Brother Paul reading one of his poems, from our conversation this year:

A habit can be a very supportive thing, a routine can be a deadening thing a ritual should always be a vital thing and should always be done mindfully. — Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

In a monastery you’re living in a poetic environment, and the countryside that we live in, I think it exposes the mind to open up to poetry. — Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO

Episode 110: Silence, Poetry, and Monastic Wisdom: A Conversation with Brother Paul Quenon, OCSO (Part One)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Br. Paul Quenon, OCSO
Date Recorded: April 30, 2020

Episodes

Dr. Leah Gunning Francis: Silence, Ferguson, and Faith (Part Two)

In this episode we conclude our conversation with Dr. Leah Gunning Francis, the Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, Indiana.

This is part two of a two-part episode. Click here to listen to part one.

During the Ferguson uprising in 2014, Dr. Gunning Francis was serving as the Associate Dean for Contextual Education and Assistant Professor of Christian Education at Eden Theological Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri. As a result, Dr. Gunning Francis wrote the book Ferguson & Faith: Sparking Leadership and Awakening Community. In the book, She interviewed more than two dozen clergy and young activists who were actively involved in the movement for racial justice in Ferguson and beyond.

Dr. Gunning Francis earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Marketing from Hampton University; a Master of Divinity degree from the Candler School of Theology; and a Doctor of Philosophy degree from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary.

White supremacy has disembodied the white body… White supremacy has disembodied and disconnected white people from the very bodies they inhabit. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

A native of New Jersey, Dr. Gunning Francis is married to Rev. Rodney Francis and they live in Indianapolis with their tween-aged children.

In the end of her book, she writes a message as relevant today as it was during her book’s release in 2015: “The fight for racial justice emerges out of the fight for human dignity. If there is any group of people who should be compelled to join this fight, it is the people who call themselves, “children of God.” Staying awake to the injustices that have been revealed through the Ferguson-related events is a critical task for communities fo faith. Our connectedness to our brothers and sisters is rooted in our connectedness to God, for we are all God’s children. And, in the words of the Civil Rights freedom fighter Ella Baker: “Until the killing of black men, black mothers’ sons, becomes as important to the rest of the country as the killing of a white mother’s son—we who believe in freedom cannot rest until this happens.”

Learn more about Dr. Gunning Francis by visiting www.leahgunningfrancis.com.

This isn’t the time to retreat into silence… This is the very time where you as a well-meaning individual need to look right in your circle of influence and start broaching what can be seen as difficult conversations, to say we can’t keep pretending that black people are valued in this county in the same way as white people. We have to look around and see how we can influence the change, right where we are, in our neighborhoods, in our churches, faith communities, schools, mom’s groups, all these various kinds of spaces need to hear a voice for black lives. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

When you teach your children not to see color, you teach them not to see me or anybody else. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

Episode 109: Silence, Ferguson, and Faith (Part One): A Conversation with Dr. Leah Gunning Francis (Part Two)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Dr. Leah Gunning Francis
Date Recorded: July 28, 2020

Episodes

Dr. Leah Gunning Francis: Silence, Ferguson, and Faith (Part One)

Dr. Leah Gunning Francis is the Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, Indiana.

During the Ferguson uprising in 2014, Dr. Gunning Francis was serving as the Associate Dean for Contextual Education and Assistant Professor of Christian Education at Eden Theological Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri. As a result, Dr. Gunning Francis wrote the book Ferguson & Faith: Sparking Leadership and Awakening Community. In the book, She interviewed more than two dozen clergy and young activists who were actively involved in the movement for racial justice in Ferguson and beyond.

Dr. Gunning Francis earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Marketing from Hampton University; a Master of Divinity degree from the Candler School of Theology; and a Doctor of Philosophy degree from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary.

We can not be silent to the racial injustice in our time. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

A native of New Jersey, Dr. Gunning Francis is married to Rev. Rodney Francis and they live in Indianapolis with their tween-aged children.

In the end of her book, she writes a message as relevant today as it was during her book’s release in 2015: “The fight for racial justice emerges out of the fight for human dignity. If there is any group of people who should be compelled to join this fight, it is the people who call themselves, “children of God.” Staying awake to the injustices that have been revealed through the Ferguson-related events is a critical task for communities fo faith. Our connectedness to our brothers and sisters is rooted in our connectedness to God, for we are all God’s children. And, in the words of the Civil Rights freedom fighter Ella Baker: “Until the killing of black men, black mothers’ sons, becomes as important to the rest of the country as the killing of a white mother’s son—we who believe in freedom cannot rest until this happens.”

Learn more about Dr. Gunning Francis by visiting www.leahgunningfrancis.com.

This is part one of a two-part episode. Part two will be released later this month.

Look for the leader within. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

Here is a video produced to introduce readers to Ferguson and Faith.

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

White supremacy has disembodied the white body. — Dr. Leah Gunning Francis

Episode 108: Silence, Ferguson, and Faith (Part One): A Conversation with Dr. Leah Gunning Francis (Part One)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Dr. Leah Gunning Francis
Date Recorded: July 28, 2020

Featured photograph by Cassidy Hall.

Episodes

Sarah Lund: Silence and Mental Health in the Church (Part Two)

The Reverend Doctor Sarah Griffith Lund is the author of Blessed Are the Crazy: Breaking the Silence about Mental Illness, Family and Church. She is an ordained minister and has served as pastor to churches in Brooklyn, NY, Minneapolis, MN, and New Smyrna Beach, FL. She holds degrees from Trinity University, Princeton Theological Seminary, Rutgers University, and McCormick Theological Seminary.

This is part two of a two-part episode. To listen to part one, click here.

She is on the leadership team for Bethany Ecumenical Fellows, a mentoring program for young clergy, and serves as the Vice Chair for the United Church of Christ Mental Health Network. Dr. Lund received the Dell Award for Mental Health Education at the 30th General Synod of the UCC. She currently serves as a Vice President for Advancement at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, IN. You can get to know her better by reading her blog at www.sarahgriffithlund.com.

Our society and our church is ableist. We have a preference for people who are able-bodied. And so when we view candidates for ministry who have a physical disability, we are biased, and we automatically think that they are not able. — Sarah Griffith Lund.

Here is a video produced to introduce readers to Blessed Are the Crazy.

As a pastor I have started a monthly day of prayer where I go to a local retreat center and have a day of silence. I find that that’s really crucial for my own sense of grounding and creating space to discern and to listen to the spirit. — Sarah Griffith Lund

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Silence, in order for it to feel safe for a lot of us, needs to have a host — a person who holds that silence, and who is hosting our visit. — Sarah Griffith Lund

Episode 107: Silence, Mental Health, and the Church: A Conversation with Sarah Griffith Lund (Part Two)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Sarah Griffith Lund
Date Recorded: April 14, 2020

Episodes

Sarah Lund: Silence and Mental Illness in the Church (Part One)

The Reverend Doctor Sarah Griffith Lund is the author of Blessed Are the Crazy: Breaking the Silence about Mental Illness, Family and Church. She is an ordained minister and has served as pastor to churches in Brooklyn, NY, Minneapolis, MN, and New Smyrna Beach, FL. She holds degrees from Trinity University, Princeton Theological Seminary, Rutgers University, and McCormick Theological Seminary.

She is on the leadership team for Bethany Ecumenical Fellows, a mentoring program for young clergy, and serves as the Vice Chair for the United Church of Christ Mental Health Network. Dr. Lund received the Dell Award for Mental Health Education at the 30th General Synod of the UCC. She currently serves as a Vice President for Advancement at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis, IN. You can get to know her better by reading her blog at www.sarahgriffithlund.com.

This is part one of a two-part episode. To hear part two, click here.

Here is a video produced to introduce readers to Blessed Are the Crazy.

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Episode 106: Silence, Mental Illness, and the Church: A Conversation with Sarah Griffith Lund (Part One)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Sarah Griffith Lund
Date Recorded: April 14, 2020

Featured photo (frog) by Crystal McClernon on Unsplash.

Episodes

Kaitlin Curtice: Silence, Faith, and Indigenous Culture (Part Two)

Kaitlin B. Curtice is a member of the Potawatomi Nation, as well as a Christian, public speaker, and poet. She is the author of Native: Identity, Belonging, and Rediscovering God, which has been highly praised by Barbara Brown Taylor (“Kaitlin Curtice is one of the braver writers I know. She won’t smooth any edges for you, and she won’t let you change the subject, but she’ll support you digging as deeply for your roots as she has for hers.”) and Richard Rohr (“Curtice is a brave truth-teller and a prophetic voice we need to be listening to, and Native is a book that will guide us toward a better future”). Kaitlin is also the author of Glory Happening: Finding the Divine in Everyday Places.

This is part two of a two part episode. To listen to part one, click here.

She travels widely, speaking on matters of faith and justice within the church as it relates to indigenous peoples, and has been a featured speaker at conferences such as Why Christian, Evolving Faith, the Wild Goose, and the Festival of Faith and Writing. Kaitlin B. Curtice is a monthly columnist for Sojourners, has contributed to On Being and Religious News Service, and has been featured on CBS and in USA Today and the New Yorker for her work on having difficult conversations within the church about colonization. You can learn more about her and explore her blog at www.kaitlincurtice.com.

You don’t have to have children to believe in the next generation. We all should be caretakers of each other’s children, no matter who we are. — Kaitlin B. Curtice

Universally, as humans, we belong to the earth… as children, we are born with this longing to connect to the earth… we have to take ourselves  — Kaitlin B. Curtice

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Episode 105: Silence, Faith, and Indigenous Culture: A Conversation with Kaitlin B. Curtice (Part Two)
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Kaitlin B. Curtice
Date Recorded: April 20, 2020

Featured photo by Srikanth Peetha on Unsplash.

Episodes

Kaitlin Curtice: Silence, Faith, and Indigenous Culture (Part One)

Kaitlin B. Curtice is a member of the Potawatomi Nation, as well as a Christian, public speaker, and poet. She is the author of Native: Identity, Belonging, and Rediscovering God, which has been highly praised by Barbara Brown Taylor (“Kaitlin Curtice is one of the braver writers I know. She won’t smooth any edges for you, and she won’t let you change the subject, but she’ll support you digging as deeply for your roots as she has for hers.”) and Richard Rohr (“Curtice is a brave truth-teller and a prophetic voice we need to be listening to, and Native is a book that will guide us toward a better future”). Kaitlin is also the author of Glory Happening: Finding the Divine in Everyday Places.

This is part one of a two part episode. Part Two will be released on June 22, 2020.

She travels widely, speaking on matters of faith and justice within the church as it relates to indigenous peoples, and has been a featured speaker at conferences such as Why Christian, Evolving Faith, the Wild Goose, and the Festival of Faith and Writing. Kaitlin B. Curtice is a monthly columnist for Sojourners, has contributed to On Being and Religious News Service, and has been featured on CBS and in USA Today and the New Yorker for her work on having difficult conversations within the church about colonization. You can learn more about her and explore her blog at www.kaitlincurtice.com.

If my identity as an indigenous person matters, whatever my spirituality is… it has to be tied to breaking apart systems of colonization if I’m going to be a person that is made to love others. — Kaitlin B. Curtice

Being outside… isn’t perfect silence, but it’s silence with the sounds of what nature offers us, and I think that is a kind of silence, because it quiets us, and it allows us to hear something other than ourselves… that’s the deep well that I draw from. — Kaitlin B. Curtice

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Episode 104: Silence, Faith, and Indigenous Culture: A Conversation with Kaitlin B. Curtice (Part One)
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Kaitlin B. Curtice
Date Recorded: April 20, 2020

Featured photo by Karim Sakhibgareev on Unsplash.

Episodes

Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD: Silence, the Disinherited, and the Wisdom of Howard Thurman for Our Time

One of the first guests on this podcast was Dr. Lerita Coleman Brown, who joined us on our episode #9 in 2018. Today we are delighted to welcome her back to the podcast. You can hear Professor Brown’s previous conversation with us here.

Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD is the author of When the Heart Speaks, Listen: Discovering Inner Wisdom, detailing her remarkable spiritual journey as a heart transplant recipient. She has also contributed essays to books including Embodied Spirits: Stories of Spiritual Directors of Color, Living Into God’s Dream: Dismantling Racism in America, and Ain’t Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around — Stories of Contemplation and Justice.

Professor Brown is the Ayse I. Carden Distinguished Professor Emerita of Psychology at Agnes Scott College. She has survived over 25 years with her transplanted heart, and 14 years with a transplanted kidney as well. She has also endured a heart valve replacement and a pacemaker implant. In addition to her work as a psychologist and educator, she is a spiritual director and retreat leader who often shares her love for the contemplative wisdom of the renowned African-American mystic, Howard Thurman. You can learn more about her online at www.peaceforhearts.com.

Our answers are in the silence. — Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD

Given the extraordinary moment that we find ourselves in, and especially our commitment here at the podcast not only to celebrate the gift of silence (and to dismantle all forms of toxic silence, including racism), it seemed natural to invite Lerita back — not only for her insight into the towering contemplative genius of Thurman, but also for her own perceptive words of wisdom about how we can spiritually navigate the urgency for fighting racism and other forms of injustice in our time.

One of the problems with white and black is that they’re totally constructed sociopolitical identities… disinherited people have no protection from the state. — Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD

Dr. Lerita Coleman Brown with 2/3 of Encountering Silence. Left: with Cassidy at the Wild Goose Festival, 2019. Right: with Carl, 2018. (photos by Cassidy Hall and Fran McColman)

You’ve got to be able to center down and feel that sense of renewal from the Spirit, and I think it’s really important to learn to listen… We’re all called to do something to help restore God’s beloved creation… Every single person has a role to play. What is your role in this? — Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Find Dr. Lerita Coleman Brown online at her website, www.peaceforhearts.com.

To learn more about Howard Thurman (and to hear online audio files of his sermons), visit the website for the Howard and Sue Bailey Thurman Center at Boston University.

Episode 103: Silence, the Disinherited, and the Wisdom of Howard Thurman for Our Time: A Conversation with Dr. Lerita Coleman Brown
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall and Kevin Johnson
Guest: Lerita Coleman Brown, PhD
Date Recorded: June 5, 2020

Featured photo by Cassidy Hall.

Episodes

Kerry Connelly: Silence, Privilege, and Dismantling Racism (Part Two)

This episode continues our conversation with blogger/activist Kerry Connelly. As in part one of this interview, we explore one of the most pervasive forms of toxic silence in our culture: the silence embedded in white privilege and systemic racism.

Kerry Connelly is a writer, certified life coach, creator of the no-nonsense blog Jerseygirl, JESUS, and host of the “White on White” podcast, which reimagines white identity apart from the dead end of pseudo-supremacy.

This is part two of a two-part episode. To listen to part one, click here.

Her latest book is Good White Racist? Confronting Your Role in Racial Injustice. Kerry Connelly is currently pursuing a Master of Divinity at Christian Theological Seminary (where she first met Cassidy Hall). She lives in New Jersey with her family.

I have to always be aware, practice awareness of who’s in the room, what’s happening, and what might be my call as a white anti-racist in that particular context, and it’s not always going to be the same, there’s not one answer. — Kerry Connelly

Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza (who has also been a guest on this podcast) praised Good White Racist? by saying, “The work that needs to be done is white-on-white race talk. By that I mean, white folks talking to white folks about the ways white supremacy is internalized and therefore shows up in their social practice. Kerry endeavors to do just this, and I think we all should invest our time in this book!”

I don’t recommend getting involved with Jesus if you don’t want to be radically challenged… I can’t be in relationship with Jesus and then be permitted to go about propping up the status quo. — Kerry Connelly

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

Find Kerry Connelly at www.kerryconnelly.com.

I wonder what it must have been like, to have been Jesus, and be embodied in the way Jesus was embodied, and then experience that kind of silence in the desert… to be in that place, and to think about silence in that context, is a little mind-blowing. — Kerry Connelly

Episode 102: Silence, Privilege, and Dismantling Racism: A Conversation with Kerry Connelly (Part Two)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Kerry Connelly
Date Recorded: April 13, 2020

Featured image photo by Cassidy Hall.

Episodes

Kerry Connelly: Silence, Privilege, and Dismantling Racism (Part One)

On this podcast we often explore the toxic side of silence. In this episode we explore one of the most pervasive forms of toxic silence in our culture: the silence embedded in white privilege and systemic racism. Guiding us in this exploration is author Kerry Connelly.

Kerry Connelly is a writer, certified life coach, creator of the no-nonsense blog Jerseygirl, JESUS, and host of the “White on White” podcast, which reimagines white identity apart from the dead end of pseudo-supremacy.

Her latest book is Good White Racist? Confronting Your Role in Racial Injustice. Kerry Connelly is currently pursuing a Master of Divinity at Christian Theological Seminary (where she first met Cassidy Hall). She lives in New Jersey with her family.

I am much more of an actor, a doer, a go out and push — and that’s something that I have to work to heal a little bit in myself, through silence. — Kerry Connelly

Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza (who has also been a guest on this podcast) praised Good White Racist? by saying, “The work that needs to be done is white-on-white race talk. By that I mean, white folks talking to white folks about the ways white supremacy is internalized and therefore shows up in their social practice. Kerry endeavors to do just this, and I think we all should invest our time in this book!”

This is part one of a two-part episode. Click here to listen to part two.

A systemic example of white silence is, for example, the way that we as a society will gaslight people of color who are trying to call out racism, and the Take a Knee movement is a great example of that. The Take a Knee movement is a perfect example of people of color attempting to peacefully bring attention to a very specific result of systemic racism in our country, which is police brutality, and white people will talk about everything but the issue at hand — we will talk about the flag, we will talk about our soldiers, we will talk about national pride, we will talk about patriotism… but we refuse, we insist upon remaining silent about discussing the actual problem. — Kerry Connelly

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

For white people to find our meaning, and to find our essence of being apart from this construct of pseudo-supremacy, that’s the real work that white people have to do. Because until we can do that, we’re never going to be truly willing to dismantle racist systems. — Kerry Connelly

Episode 101: Silence, Privilege, and Dismantling Racism (Part One): A Conversation with Kerry Connelly (Part One)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Kerry Connelly
Date Recorded: April 13, 2020

Featured photo: George Washington Bridge, photo by James Ting on Unsplash.

Episodes

Kathleen Norris: Silence, Acedia, and Pandemic (Part Two)

This week’s episode — our 100th overall, not counting our “pilot episode” — features the conclusion of Kathleen Norris’s second conversation with Encountering Silence.

Kathleen Norris is the award-winning poet, writer, and author of The New York Times bestsellers The Cloister Walk, Acedia and Me, Dakota: A Spiritual Geography, Amazing Grace and The Virgin of Bennington. She’s also published seven books of poetry, her first being the 1971 Big Table Younger Poets award-winning  Falling Off.

I provide myself with enough chocolate to keep going. — Kathleen Norris

Kathleen’s work explores the spiritual life with an intimate and historical perspective. Cassiday notes, “Her book Acedia & me: A Marriage, Monks, and a Writer’s Life accompanied me in the most beautiful ways a book ever has and truly changed my life—and it remains among my top 3 favorite books alongside Thomas Merton and Mary Oliver. I wept through the book feeling more understood and clear-headed about my own spiritual journey than ever before.”

This is part two of a two-part episode. Click here to listen to part one.

I’ll never forget, I was talking to an Episcopal nun; when I told her I was writing a book about acedia, she said, ‘Well you know, you’ve taken on the devil himself.’ And now that I’ve finished that book, I know exactly what she meant. She was absolutely right about that. The crazy thing is that her comment didn’t stop me, I just kept going with it. — Kathleen Norris

Amid the pandemic Kathleen shared some recent work on the National Catholic Reporter, offering tips for coping with acedia amid this time of slowing down and staying in. She writes, “I recognize acedia when it does turn up. Being forced to stay still is a breeding ground….It’s the feeling of being totally bored and totally restless. It’s a horrible combination… It isn’t just depression. It isn’t just boredom. It’s a lot of things.”

Widowed in 2003, Kathleen is no stranger to living alone. She now divides her time between South Dakota and Honolulu, Hawaii.

In our previous conversation with Kathleen in 2018, she had this to say:

Silence sometimes shows you what you’re really suffering from… just to sit there and let the silence sink in, and often that’s when you discover what it is you’re really worried about, what you’re really suffering from, what your real concerns are, because when you’re busy in the world either with activity or a lot of verbal stuff going on, you’re ignoring some of those deeper things, and sitting in silence for a while, it will start to surface.

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

Episode 100: Silence, Acedia and Pandemic: A Conversation with Kathleen Norris (Part Two)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Kathleen Norris
Date Recorded: April 27, 2020

Episodes

Kathleen Norris: Silence, Acedia, and Pandemic (Part One)

Our returning guest Kathleen Norris is the award-winning poet, writer, and author of The New York Times bestsellers The Cloister Walk, Acedia and Me, Dakota: A Spiritual Geography, Amazing Grace, and The Virgin of Bennington. She’s also published seven books of poetry, her first being the 1971 Big Table Younger Poets award-winning Falling Off.

Kathleen’s work explores the spiritual life with an intimate and historical perspective. Cassidy notes, “Her book Acedia & me: A Marriage, Monks, and a Writer’s Life accompanied me in the most beautiful ways a book ever has and truly changed my life—and it remains among my top 3 favorite books alongside Thomas Merton and Mary Oliver. I wept through the book feeling more understood and clear-headed about my own spiritual journey than ever before.”

This is part one of a two-part interview. Click here to listen to part two.

Amid the pandemic Kathleen shared some recent work on the National Catholic Reporter, offering tips for coping with acedia amid this time of slowing down and staying in. She writes, “I recognize acedia when it does turn up. Being forced to stay still is a breeding ground….It’s the feeling of being totally bored and totally restless. It’s a horrible combination… It isn’t just depression. It isn’t just boredom. It’s a lot of things.”

Acedia is a bad thought, it’s a passion that is opportunistic, just like this virus. It will strike just when we’re at a low point, our immune system is down, because we’re feeling anxious and tired and restless and bored and sad about how things used to be — and all of those things are classic signs of acedia. — Kathleen Norris

Widowed in 2003, Kathleen is no stranger to living alone. She now divides her time between South Dakota and Honolulu, Hawaii.

Silence sometimes shows you what you’re really suffering from… just to sit there and let the silence sink in, and often that’s when you discover what it is you’re really worried about, what you’re really suffering from, what your real concerns are, because when you’re busy in the world either with activity or a lot of verbal stuff going on, you’re ignoring some of those deeper things, and sitting in silence for a while, it will start to surface. — Kathleen Norris

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

The opposite of acedia is love. So that if you can work your way through acedia, stagger through all of those bad thoughts that are telling you that nothing matters, and reconnect with other people, realizing who you love and doing what love requires … that is one way we can fight our way through acedia. — Kathleen Norris

Episode 99: Silence, Acedia and Pandemic: A Conversation with Kathleen Norris (Part One)
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Kathleen Norris
Date Recorded: April 27, 2020

Episodes

In Pursuit of Silence, Earth Day, and the Dawn Chorus (Episode 98)

To honor the 50th Anniversary of the first Earth Day, and in recognition of the continuing challenges related to the COVID-19 pandemic, Encountering Silence‘s own Cassidy Hall joins with her colleague at Transcendental Media, Patrick Shen, to announce two special, limited-time opportunities:

For today’s episode of the podcast, Patrick joins us to speak about the movie, how its message is more important than ever in our world today, and offers some insight into new initiatives he is working on, including a collaborative film project celebrating silence at the break of day called the Dawn Chorus.

If we could all learn the work of silence we’d take an awful lot of pressure off of our planet, in terms of ecology, because we wouldn’t be addicted to consumption. And, we wouldn’t be wasting what we waste. … there wouldn’t be this constant seeking seeking seeking for something else to fill up that empty space, when what will fill up the empty space is actually going into the empty space. Again, it’s a paradox. To fill up that empty space, you need to go into the spaciousness of your silence that lives in your heart. 

— Maggie Ross

Meme recently seen on Facebook, which Carl alludes to in this episode.

…The rush and pressure of modern life are a form, perhaps the most common form, of its innate violence. To allow oneself to be carried away by a multitude of conflicting concerns, to surrender to too many demands, to commit oneself to too many projects, to want to help everyone and everything is to succumb to violence. More than that, it is cooperation in violence. The frenzy of the activist neutralizes his work for peace. It destroys his own inner capacity for peace. It destroys the fruitfulness of his own work, because it kills the root of inner wisdom which makes work fruitful….  —Thomas Merton

To hear our previous episodes featuring Patrick Shen, click here and here.

A lot of the white noise of the world has fallen away, many of us are hearing our own voices for the first time, we’re certainly much louder than before, and I think the film provides some helpful context. — Patrick Shen

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

Episode 98: In Pursuit of Silence, Earth Day, and the Dawn Chorus: A Conversation with Patrick Shen
Hosted by: Kevin Johnson
With: Cassidy Hall, Carl McColman
Guest: Patrick Shen
Date Recorded: April 20, 2020

Episodes

Mike Morrell: Silence in the Divine Dance (Part Two)

Mike Morrell may be best known as the collaborating author, with Richard Rohr, of The Divine Dance: The Trinity and Your Transformation. Mike was involved with the founding of the Wild Goose Festival, a justice, arts and spirituality gathering that takes place each July in western North Carolina; he is also the founder of the Wisdom Camp, which takes place each year just before the Wild Goose.

This is the second part of our conversation with Mike. To hear the first part, click here.

Mike curates contemplative and community experiences through programs such as Relational Skills and ReWilder, wherein he joyfully holds the space for the extraordinary transformation that can take place at the intersection of anticipation, imagination, and radical acceptance. Mike lives with his wife and two daughters in Asheville, North Carolina. To learn more about Mike’s ongoing exploration of Spirit, Culture, and Permaculture, visit his blog at MikeMorrell.org. 

For me, the choice to be trinitarian is actually to be the most inclusive possible of the many sedimentary layers of our spiritual past… the trinity is a way of saying that unity is not uniformity, oneness is not conformity. — Mike Morrell

Most of our religious discussions are taking place in an eyeblink of geological time. That’s not to invalidate them, but it is to give them a certain healthy sense of proportion and humility. — Mike Morrell

Some of the Resources and Authors We Mention In This Episode:

“Secrets,” the poem Mike read, is by Simona Chitescu Weik. Connect with her on Instagram: www.instagram.com/simonaisabella/

Episode 97: Silence in the Divine Dance: A Conversation with Mike Morrell (Part Two)
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall, Kevin Johnson
Guest: Mike Morrell
Date Recorded: April 7, 2020