Kenneth S. Leong: Encountering Silence in Zen and Christianity (Episode 27)

How does silence impact spirituality at the level of interfaith or interreligious engagement? Our guest today, Kenneth Leong, wrote a seminal book on Christian-Buddhist interspirituality, and so we were eager to have him join the Encountering Silence conversation to reflect on how silence takes us to a place beyond the limitations or separations of doctrine, dogma, or religious culture.

Kenneth S. Leong is the author of The Zen Teachings of Jesus and One Hundred Zen Stories for the New Millennium. After working over twenty years in finance, he pursued a Master’s Degree in Teaching and devoted twelve years to teaching in a variety of education settings, primarily teaching mathematics but also finance, philosophy, and Zen.

Mr. Leong has been a speaker and lecturer on Buddhism and spirituality since the mid-1990s, having taught in Manhattan’s Chinatown, the New York Open Center, and other continuing education and adult learning venues. He is active on social media, moderating or contributing to groups devoted to topics such as Buddhism, Alan Watts, and Zen Christians.

Silence, to me, means right concentration. — Kenneth S. Leong

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Episode 27: Encountering Silence in Christianity and Zen: A Conversation with Kenneth S. Leong
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Kevin Johnson, Cassidy Hall
Guest: Kenneth S. Leong
Date Recorded: May 25, 2018

Barbara A. Holmes: Silence as Unspeakable Joy (Episode 26)

How does the encounter with silence usher us into mystery? And how is our relationship with silence shaped by, or challenged by, the challenges and dynamics of social difference and privilege? What is the relationship between contemplation and community, and how is community actually essential to authentic contemplation? How are tears, and moaning, and dancing, and lament, essential to contemplation — especially among those persons and communities who experience oppression?

“Silence has power, positively, it’s life-giving… and it also can be a hiding place for people of the dominant culture.” — Dr. Barbara A. Holmes

These are just a few of the questions we explore in today’s episode, a conversation with scholar and contemplative the Reverend Dr. Barbara A. Holmes. Dr. Holmes is the author of Joy Unspeakable: Contemplative Practices of the Black Church, and has emerged as a leading voice calling for affirming and celebrating contemplation as it emerges in the lives of all people, regardless of ethnicity, gender, or religious affiliation.

“The women in my family were the ones who really seeded contemplation into my very being. I watched them — I saw that mysticism didn’t have to be weird. It was very weird, but you could still make biscuits! You didn’t have to go berserk; you could do your normal life, be loving,  kind, help others, and still host these magical moments, wondrous moments, awe-inducing moments, and still do ordinary things like meet your kids at the stop on the school bus.” — Dr. Barbara A. Holmes

Her thoughtful and insightful reflection on silence and contemplation is grounded in her family of origin — coming from the Gullah people of the SC/GA low country — and her work which explores the intersection between spirituality, stillness, and social justice.

“Silence isn’t the word that I often use. Just simply because of the problem for people of color, and women, who have been silenced… I tend to use the language of stillness, of centering, and of embodied ineffability.” — Dr. Barbara A. Holmes

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

“The willingness to listen, on both sides, is the beginning of reconciliation.” — Dr. Barbara A. Holmes

Episode 26: Silence as Unspeakable Joy: A Conversation with Dr. Barbara A. Holmes
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Barbara Holmes
Date Recorded: May 24, 2018

Six Months of Encountering Silence! (Episode 25)

Hello friends!

Can you believe that the Encountering Silence Podcast released its first episode six months ago?!?

Yes — our “pilot episode” was released on December 6, 2017.

This week we’re celebrating our six-month-anniversary with a brief conversation in which we reflect on some of the insights and surprises that the last six months have yielded for us.

Silence includes everyone, silence levels the ground and flattens our egos, to recall that we’re all human and we all belong to one another. — Cassidy Hall

In the interest of full disclosure, let’s say it right up front: this is our “pledge drive” episode. One of the things we’ve learned over the last few months is that we had seriously under-estimated how much time it takes to plan, record, edit, release, and promote a podcast.

We love doing this, and so we’re not begrudging one second of our time. But since we are all self-employed, we also have to balance the joy we find in the podcast with the reality that we need to be earning a living.

Over a dozen listeners have made the commitment to support the podcast with a monthly pledge through Patreon. If you are one of those, please know how much we appreciate your support. Thank you!

If you haven’t made a pledge, then we humbly but sincerely ask you to consider doing so now.  Even $1 a month makes a difference. Frankly, we would be more excited to have one hundred people pledge a dollar a month than to have one person pledge $100. Why? Because it shows us that people want to be part of the Encountering Silence Circle.

Please visit our Patreon page at patreon.com/encounteringsilence

In this episode, we mention a wonderful book by Henri Nouwen called A Spirituality of Fundraising. We recommend it to anyone who is a fundraiser (or a donor!) as it beautifully expresses how giving money (and asking for support from current and future donors) can be an expression of community, of caring, and indeed of spirituality.

Episode 25: Six Months of Encountering Silence
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall, Kevin Johnson
Date Recorded: May 21, 2018

 

Mirabai Starr: Silence, Stillness, Passion, and Embodiment (Episode 24)

“I’m rather obsessed with the mystics of all traditions,” enthuses Mirabai Starr, as she muses on the profound relationship between silence and stillness and passionate/ecstatic mystical love.

In a rich conversation that touches on the beauty of the high desert of the American Southwest, the earthy/embodied passion of the spirituality of wilderness, and the uniquely subversive wisdom of the feminine mystics, Mirabai deepens and expands our ongoing conversation on silence by inviting us into a place where the spirituality of stillness meets, and embraces, the erotic spirituality of ecstasy, joy, and love.

Most of the mystics, even though they’re these extravagant love poets, who are overflowing with passion, they all also are grounded in this sense of stillness. And they cultivate that stillness. — Mirabai Starr

Mirabai Starr is an author, translator, retreat leader, and leader in the contemplative interspiritual community. Born into a secular Jewish family, Mirabai describes herself as a “daughter of the counter-culture,” having spent part of her childhood at the Lama Foundation (an intentional spiritual community, famous as the home of Ram Dass). As an adult, she translated several of the Christian mystics, including John of the Cross, Teresa of Ávila, and Julian of Norwich, into accessible and acclaimed contemporary English.

So all the mystics of all traditions, that I know and love anyway, speak to the transformational power of not knowing. I think that’s intimately connected with silence. There’s a higher truth that is only present, it seems, when we let all of the concepts go, and allow ourselves to know nothing. It’s a vulnerable state, it’s a state of spiritual nakedness, it’s not for the faint of heart. — Mirabai Starr

More recently she has written books that celebrate her spirituality (God of Love) and that recount her own challenging and at times heartbreaking life story (Caravan of No Despair).  A popular teacher both in person and online, Mirabai’s wisdom is anchored in her own deeply embodied spirituality, drawing on the insight of all the great spiritual traditions and particular on her intuitive celebration of the Divine Feminine.

The devotional impulse leads me into the presence of the Sacred, and then I am left with this kind of hush, that I drop into, and then that feeds back in again to that devotional impulse, because following those periods of deep stillness that just wash over my soul, I have that joyous urge to praise. So it’s this ever-flowing dance between devotion and nonduality, or between celebration and stillness. — Mirabai Starr

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

How, how can we step up and offer ourselves in service, to help in some way to alleviate some suffering in this world, unless we have taken that suffering into the cells of our own bodies? I feel like that’s what the feminine path is all about. We can not separate ourselves from the pain of the world, we have to take in the brokenness and feel it in the depths of our being, and then of course we will respond with the impulse to do something about it. — Mirabai Starr

Mirabai Starr (l), with Carl and Fran McColman, at the 2016 Wild Goose Festival.

Episode 24: The Silence of Missing Voices: A Conversation with Mirabai Starr
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall, Kevin Johnson
Guest: Mirabai Starr
Date Recorded: May 22, 2018

 

 

Jessica Mesman Griffith: The Silence of Missing Voices (Episode 23)

What is the relationship between silence, creativity, fear, doubt, death, and missing voices — especially in terms of art and literature?

To explore this provocative question, we turned to our mutual friend — and one of the most gifted and articulate writers of our time — Jessica Mesman Griffith.

It’s very difficult for me to be in any kind of silence.. I love being out in nature and not having the iPod. When I take my long walks every day, I don’t take my iPod, I don’t listen to music, I don’t have earbuds, but the sounds of nature are not the sounds of my own body. It’s the sounds of my own body I think that terrify me. — Jessica Mesman Griffith

Jessica Mesman Griffith is an award-winning essayist and memoirist who honestly and fearlessly explores the intersections between religion (especially Catholicism), art and creativity, mental health, and social justice.  She is the founder of the Sick Pilgrim blog (www.patheos.com/blogs/sickpilgrim), described as “a space for the spiritually sick, and their fellow travelers, to rest a while.” Her books include Love and Salt: A Spiritual Friendship Shared in Letters (co-authored with Amy Andrews), A Book of Grace Filled Days: 2016, and Daily Inspiration for Women (co-authored with Ginny Kubitz Moyer, Vinita Hampton Wright, and Margaret Silf).

Jessica’s authenticity is revealed from the first minutes of our conversation, when she discusses how silence seemed unsettling to her as a child. Musing on the relationship between silence and the fear of death, or the link between happiness and conviviality, and even the anxiety that comes from the noises of her own body, she muses on how she has discovered different “types” of silence (the silence of nature seems different from the silence in a suburban home).

Good writing is having an ear… Having an ear for how something sounds on the page, for the rhythm of language… The best writers have an ear for where something falls flat or doesn’t sound true. — Jessica Mesman Griffith

The conversation goes on to explore the questions of the relationship between silence and creativity, privilege, and the body. Invoking poetry, horror movies, music, narrative nonfiction, we look at silence from many angles, acknowledging that the human experience of silence is messy and multivalent — pretty much like the human experience in general.

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

I think we’re certain that it [silence] means death and then we’re terrified that that’s what death is – that that’s all death is, the silent darkness. So in Christianity we revolt against that by making it as loud and hideously ugly apparently as we can, at all times… This is our ultimate fear–that there’s nothing. — Jessica Mesman Griffith

Goofing around in New York City. Left to Right: Cassidy Hall, Jessica Mesman Griffith, Fr. James Martin, Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman. Photo by Fran McColman.

Episode 23: The Silence of Missing Voices: A Conversation with Jessica Mesman Griffith
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Kevin Johnson, Carl McColman
Guest: Jessica Mesman Griffith
Date Recorded: May 18, 2018

Kurt Johnson: Silence, the Body, and Movement (Episode 22)

How is Silence related to the human body? To movement, exercise, and performance? To physical, as well as mental and spiritual, wellness?

Today we begin what we hope will be an ongoing conversation in the Encountering Silence world, exploring these and similar questions.

Kurt Johnson

We open this exploration thanks to Kurt Johnson joining in the conversation today. Kurt Johnson is a personal trainer and massage therapist who works with individuals, small groups and corporations, to help  people manage pain, lose weight, improve fitness, and simply live better through movement, training, and exercise. He co-owns the Core Fitness training studio in North Haven, CT, and has over twenty years of experience studying and practicing the art and science of physical movement — and helping others to achieve their goals and beyond for bodily wellness. On top  of it all, Kurt is an avid runner and also engages in endurance competitions.  He has entered and completed half-Iron Man and full Iron Man races.

What’s going on is you’re doing, doing, doing, doing, but we need to take a step back and “non-do,” and focus more on the quietness of your body, paying attention to those little things that are going on in your body, and finding out why these things are happening. — Kurt Johnson

If “personal trainer” evokes in your mind a young drill sergeant, fresh out of the Marines, who barks orders at his clients in a gym blaring with loud music and glaring neon lights — well, Kurt Johnson is not that person! Rather, his focus is on integrating physical wellness with mental and spiritual nurture — and so needless to say, he has some interesting things to say about the importance of silence in regard to physical health, fitness, and wellness. Kurt sees his ultimate mission to help people to find complete freedom in their movement of mind, body, and spirit, so they can become who they truly are.

Oh, and by the way, Kurt is Kevin’s brother. 😇

We begin our conversation by exploring why (and how) silence and physical wellness and performance go together, which includes looking at the paradox between performance-as-goal-attainment, and how silence invites us into a radical place without goals or achievements — a place Kurt calls “non-performance.”

My goal for people is to increase their energy levels. If I can get them energy, then they’re going to feel better  and it’s going to link them to what their ultimate goal is, their purpose—and that usually always circles right back around into deep silence. — Kurt Johnson

The conversation expands (pardon the pun) to include the importance of breathing as a foundational movement of the body. Kurt points out that we live in a culture that is so geared toward achievement and performance, that often many of us carry so much stress in our bodies that beneath our frenzied activity, often our bodies carry significant amounts of anxiety and pain. Thus, the path to wellness often lies not in more “performance,” but paradoxically in learning to let go of our addiction to striving and achievement.

A baby, when they’re breathing, it really is amazing to watch. What’s going on is they have full belly breaths, whereas when we get older we tend to be more in the chest, and this is where our anxiety and our stresses go.  — Kurt Johnson

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

I see the ultimate potential in every human being. I’ve always felt that way. I feel that people don’t give themselves enough credit. — Kurt Johnson

Some Links Worth Exploring:

Episode 22: Silence, the Body, and Movement: A Conversation with Kurt Johnson
Hosted by: Kevin Johnson
With: Cassidy Hall, Carl McColman
Guest: Kurt Johnson
Date Recorded: May 11, 2018

Encountering Silence in Our Busy Lives (Episode 21)

If you could take a snapshot of your relationship with silence today, what would it look like? Perhaps you will have just come back from visiting a city where tragedy has brought about a new quality of silence. Perhaps you are just clinging to a daily sitting practice in the midst of a very busy life. Or silence is your companion in a time of personal or professional transformation.

In this episode, we muse on what our relationship with silence looks like nowadays. Reflecting on our busy lives and how we try to maintain an intentional relationship with silence in the midst of the busy-ness, we muse on the paradox of how silence calls us back from the “mindlessness” of a life that is dulled by too much time in front of a computer screen, or too much time sitting at a desk — but as we enter into silence, we are taken to a different kind of “mindlessness,” a place of forgetting self-consciousness and letting go of ego-defined ways of thinking, seeing or being.

“If you go for a hike, which I do often to reduce stress and to recuperate and to be quiet and to enjoy the beauty, if I do that I start to notice there’s another level of consciousness that’s available to me, and that level of consciousness is tapped in through silence. … One of the things I’ve noticed is that silence is that shift in attention away from where it’s self-consciousness and all about my ego and my needs, to opening up to the wide world in front of me, and saying ‘I’m a player in this, I’m part of the trees, I’m part of the wind, I’m involved in this eco-system,’ and that I need to reconnect, that I’m not separate from the flow.” — Kevin Johnson

We round out our conversation by reflecting on some of the books we are currently reading, including poetry and even a couple of “guilty pleasure” books. Cassidy finishes our conversation with a lovely poem from the great Spanish mystics St. John of the Cross.

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

Cassidy referred to the book Carl is currently editing. It’s called An Invitation to Celtic Wisdom which will be released in November.

Episode 21: Encountering Silence in Our Busy Lives
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
With: Carl McColman, Kevin Johnson
Date Recorded: May 4, 2018

 

Jim Forest: Silence and Peacemaking (Episode 20)

As a peace activist, biographer, and lover of silence, author Jim Forest’s deep humility and sincere way of being reveal to us much about listening, truly seeing, and deeply caring for our fellow human beings.

“The day starts in silence… and silence normally — not always, but normally — opens the door to prayer, so prayer and silence are very connected; sometimes the prayer is silence.” — Jim Forest

Jim Forest, speaking at the Voices of Peace conference.

Describing himself as “an undergraduate student at Dorothy Day university” — and noting that he doesn’t think he will ever graduate! — Jim Forest tells the story of a truly remarkable life — the child of American communists growing up in the 1950s, he tried his hand in the U.S. Navy but soon dropped out from the service to immerse himself in the world of the Catholic Worker Movement and anti-war activism, that led him to (among other things) co-founding the Catholic Peace Fellowship after the “Spiritual Roots of Peacemaking” retreat convened by Thomas Merton in 1964.

“Like arrows, words point, but they are not the target.” — Jim Forest

Cassidy Hall recorded this conversation while participating in the “Voices of Peace” conference in Toronto in April 2018. Their gentle and intimate conversation explores art, philosophy, politics, the Eucharist, and spirituality — and how silence dances through all these dimensions of life.

Cassidy Hall and Jim Forest

With stories about legendary figures like peace activist A. J. Muste, Henri Nouwen, Thich Nhat Hanh, and (of course) Thomas Merton, this conversation provides deep and rich insight into a man who not only knew some of the great peace activists of the twentieth century, but who was indeed one of their number.

“Without silence, we don’t hear anything.” — Jim Forest

Some of the resources and authors mentioned in this episode:

Visit Jim and Nancy Forest’s website www.jimandnancyforest.com.

Episode 20: Silence and Peacemaking: A Conversation with Jim Forest
Hosted by: Cassidy Hall
Introduced by: Kevin Johnson
Guest: Jim Forest
Date Recorded: April 27, 2018

It’s cold in Toronto, even in the spring!

Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM: Silence, Action, and Contemplation (Episode 19)

Richard Rohr talks with us in this episode about silence, spirituality, contemplation, action, and why discernment is essential for each of these areas of life.

One of the most popular and beloved of living authors writing about contemplation , Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM is the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque NM, and the dean of the online Living School. Through his popular books, audio recordings, conferences, and daily emails, this Franciscan priest has become a leading spokesperson for the recovery of contemplative spirituality in our time.

Kevin, Cassidy, and Carl skyping with Fr. Richard Rohr.

“I believe the primary orthopraxy — praxis — is silence. Primary: it precedes all other spiritual practices, all other spiritual disciplines. And of course we’re first of all talking — and I know you know what I’m going to say — about  interior silence. And that takes a while to achieve, because most of us, our mind fills up as soon as we open our eyes in the morning, with ideas, projects, agendas, arguments… and they’re all of a verbal character.” — Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM

Rohr spoke with the Encountering Silence team from his hermitage in New Mexico, where he offered insight not only into his work as a writer and speaker, but also into the challenges we all face as we seek to integrate contemplation (including silence) into the demands of contemporary life. Indeed, as our conversation progressed it became clear that, as much as he values silence, Rohr felt strongly that silence should never be used as an escape from the demands of relationships, communities, or the struggle for justice — the “action” that must be partnered with “contemplation.”

Rohr has a keen understanding that silence is not something that not all people have easy access to — so, therefore, silence is a justice issue. He also points out that silence is not the same thing as contemplation (neither, for that matter, is being an introvert!) and that perhaps the most valuable gift that silence can give us is an invitation to move beyond the dualistic nature of language into a space that is restful, open, and simple — a space where, in the title of one of his most popular books, “Everything Belongs.”

“Silence is a way of knowing.” — Kevin Johnson

Richard Rohr is a warm and generous person and our conversation was quite intimate. He told us a remarkable story about encountering two of the most renowned Catholics of the twentieth century shortly after graduating from high school (spoiler alert: one of them was Thomas Merton!), and reflects in a truly beautiful and vulnerable about how it feels to be a man at 75 (we recorded just a few days after his birthday) where he finds grace in “having no agenda.”

“If people do get into contemplation or silence in the first half of life, it’s almost always by some encounter with limits. Let me call it that instead of suffering, because we’re so afraid of the word suffering. But without limits entering your life, you tend to define your religion in terms of spiritual ascending, rather than descending.” — Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM

Among the topics we touch on in our wide-ranging conversation is the distinction between true and false silence — as well as true and false dimensions of activism — the importance of being in the “second half” of life for embracing the contemplative life, the recognition that contemplation can take different forms in different cultures, and the hope that Rohr finds working with younger adults in the context of his ministry.

Some of the resources and authors we mention in this episode:

Some of Richard Rohr’s other books include:

Episode 19: Silence, Action and Contemplation: A Conversation with Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall, Kevin Johnson
Guest: Father Richard Rohr, OFM
Date Recorded: April 10, 2018

Silence and Poetry (Episode 18)

We love poetry — and we find that, of all literary forms, poetry seems to most quickly and assuredly bring the attentive reader to the threshold of silence.

“Poets all see silence as sacred ground,” notes Kevin, “because it’s from the silence the poems come.” Together we muse on how poetry puts us in touch with our bodies, our intuition, and how the relationship between poetry and silence is, perhaps, just the same as the relationship between silence and sound that forms the foundation of music.

Much like musicians use notes, poets are the composers of words. They pay such attention to the space between. More then we do in typical writing, typical everyday language, they heed the mystery, they listen to the offbeat, and they use it. They know how to harness it, they know how to hold it open-handed… it’s I would dare to say closer to silence then any other writing is. — Cassidy Hall

Because we are all “poetry geeks” pretty much just as much as we are “silence geeks,” we joke that trying to create a podcast about poetry should take us 200 hours (or more). So this week’s episode is just a check-in, a snapshot of where our journey with poetry has taken us at least for now.

From Mary Oliver’s earthy reflection written in response to a cancer diagnosis, to Polish poet Wislawa Szymborska’s playful consideration of how the experience of the mind or soul has an “embodied” or “natural” dimension, to the more ethereal or even transcendent perspective of Evelyn Underhill, the poems we consider in this episode dance between matter and spirit, between consciousness and mystery, between wonder and doubt and insight. And while none of these poems are specifically “about” silence, they all usher us into that place where word and silence kiss.

Silence is embodied, and yet silence is paradoxically also immaterial… To encounter silence implies materiality. — Carl McColman

Some of the poets, authors and resources mentioned in this episode:

Silence isn’t a fleeing from the world, it’s a fleeing to the world. It’s actually getting out of your ideas about the world, and actually showing up and being present in the world. — Kevin Johnson

Episode 18: Silence and Poetry
Hosted by: Carl McColman
With: Cassidy Hall, Kevin Johnson
Date Recorded: April 10, 2018

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